RSSMoore Lies About Healthcare
J.R.* | July 8, 2007
The New York Daily News has a piece by Sally Pipes that challenges Michael Moore’s “Sicko” movie assertions:
In “Sicko,” Michael Moore uses a clip of my appearance earlier this year on “The O’Reilly Factor” to introduce a segment on the glories of Canadian health care.I am a new American, but I grew up and worked for many years in Canada. And I know the health care system of my native country much more intimately than does Moore. There’s a good reason why my former countrymen with the money to do so either use the services of a booming industry of illegal private clinics, or come to America to take advantage of the health care that Moore denounces.
Government-run health care in Canada inevitably resolves into a dehumanizing system of triage, where the weak and the elderly are hastened to their fates by actuarial calculation. Having fought the Canadian health care bureaucracy on behalf of my ailing mother just two years ago - she was too old, and too sick, to merit the highest quality care in the government’s eyes - I can honestly say that Moore’s preferred health care system is something I wouldn’t wish on him.
In 1999, my uncle was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. If he’d lived in America, the miracle drug Rituxan might have saved him. But Rituxan wasn’t approved for use in Canada, and he lost his battle with cancer.
But don’t take my word for it: Even the Toronto Star agrees that Moore’s endorsement of Canadian health care is overwrought and factually challenged. And the Star is considered a left-wing newspaper, even by Canadian standards.
Just last month, the Star’s Peter Howell reported from the Cannes Film Festival that Mr. Moore became irate when Canadian reporters challenged his portrayal of their national health care system. “You Canadians! You used to be so funny!” exclaimed an exasperated Moore, “You gave us all our best comedians. When did you turn so dark?”
Moore further claimed that the infamously long waiting lists in Canada are merely a reflection of the fact that Canadians have a longer life expectancy than Americans, and that the sterling system is swamped by too many Canadians who live too long.
Canada’s media know better. In 2006, the average wait time from seeing a primary care doctor to getting treatment by a specialist was more than four months. Out of a population of 32 million, there are about 3.2 million Canadians trying to get a primary care doctor. Today, according to the OECD, Canada ranks 24th out of 28 major industrialized countries in doctors per thousand people.
Unfortunately, Moore is more concerned with promoting an anti-free-market agenda than getting his facts straight. “The problem,” said Moore recently, “isn’t just [the insurance companies], or the Hospital Corporation and the Frist family - it’s the system! They can’t make a profit unless they deny care! Unless they deny claims! Our laws state very clearly that they have a legal fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits for the shareholders … the only way they can turn the big profit is to not pay out the money, to not provide the care!”
Profit, according to the filmmaker-activist, has no place in health care - period.
Moore ignores the fact that 85% of hospital beds in the U.S. are in nonprofit hospitals, and almost half of us with private plans get our insurance from nonprofit providers. Moreover, Kaiser Permanente, which Moore demonizes, is also a nonprofit.
What’s really amazing is that even the intended beneficiaries of Moore’s propagandizing don’t support his claims. The Supreme Court of Canada declared in June 2005 that the government health care monopoly in Quebec is a violation of basic human rights.
Moore put me, fleetingly, into “Sicko” as an example of an American who doesn’t understand the Canadian health care system. He couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve personally endured the creeping disaster of Canadian health care. Most unlike him, I’m willing to tell the truth about it.
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Read more about Kaiser Permanente here…See for yourself what a horrible, greedy health care “provider” they really are. I am Lehna Jordann Brewer’s Mother and it was too costly for the “non-profit,” Kaiser Permanente, to provide decent care such as a timely C-section.
http://www.kaiserthrive.org/2007/03/04/happy-birthday-lehna-jordann-brewer/
Michael Moore was right on target. I’ll be packing my bags and leaving this country that cares so little for it’s own citizens. But first, i’ll be canceling my “health insurance.”
Good riddence then. Every socialist that leaves this country makes it a better place.
And please don’t ever come back.
Gotta love libs. They’ll rant and rant. Their worldview is their worldview and the facts be damned if they get in the way! And if their lives aren’t perfect then someone has to be at fault. My parents lived in a time before everyone else was to blame. When my sister was stillborn they didn’t rant about their healthcare provider and such. They sucked it up, mourned and moved on with their lives.
Nothing is perfect Beth. Sorry for your loss but Ron’s right. The alternative to private insurance is socialism and socialism is not good for America.
Moore right on? The last thing Moore was “right on” about was how tasty the new fajitas at Taco Bell were. The man hasn’t said a trutful thing in his entire career as a director.
So, a mistake might have been made and that is how Beth justifies violating every last word of the United State’s Constitution and promoting Michael Moore as “right on”.
Makes me shiver just to think that there are people out there whose brain functions on such a low level, clouded by grief. It’s how tyrants come to rule.
We must always remember that if a mistake by someone is cause for the government to take over that something in which that person was involved in (such as healthcare) then today we would have full fledged communism with the government making our cars and providing our food, clothing and housing. The Soviets tried that. They were miserable too.
One bad experience and one bad apple is not a reason to toss liberty. The problem is, like you said Red, that there are people who when consumed by grief will do whatever they can and take whatever they are offered if it promises to elevate said grief. And that is indeed how tyranny begins.
Kaiser is non-profit in name only. NET INCOME after expenses in the first quarter of 2007 was $698 million. If you look around the site Beth mentions you’ll see that there are more than a few isolated incidents of someone “making a mistake” going on at Kaiser.
It is the mistaken belief that the alternative to private insurance is socialism that allows Kaiser and its ilk to continue killing people. Is Medicare socialism? Will the commenters above be volunteering to give up their Medicare benefits when they are of age? Why not expand Medicare to cover all Americans?
“Is Medicare socialism?”
Yes.
“Will the commenters above be volunteering to give up their Medicare benefits when they are of age?”
This is the argument a lot of lefties try. You have two choices basicially under Medicare as it currently exists. First you can just let the government steal the money unconstitutionally and never collect benefits. Second you can collect what you essentially paid for. Neither is acceptable but to let the government steal is less so.
“Why not expand Medicare to cover all Americans?”
Ever read Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution? I notice that nowhere in your rant did you even address the FACT that such a program is outside of the powers of the federal government. And if you don’t beleive that, read what the Federalists put forth as their argument. They won too btw so that means that barring amendment that is still what it means today.
“If you look around the site Beth mentions you’ll see that there are more than a few isolated incidents of someone “making a mistake” going on at Kaiser.”
Hmmmm. Interesting … so if anyone every “makes a mistake” and someone suffers because of it that is a reason to be against the whole system. Again I say interesting … because unless you think government workers don’t “make mistakes” or do things that are not in the best interest of those that they serve you are also going to be against government run healthcare.
So you are apparently against all health care because such things happen regardless of who runs it. There is a difference however. In the free market you can go somewhere else. Under government health care you have no choice … you accept what the government gives you.
I noticed that you failed to address Jeff’s most salient point:”We must always remember that if a mistake by someone is cause for the government to take over that something in which that person was involved in (such as healthcare) then today we would have full fledged communism with the government making our cars and providing our food, clothing and housing.”
But you don’t want to address that do you because you like socialism and desire a Marxist state don’t you?
PM, don’t ever bring up the fact that it is unconstitutional to someone that REALLY wants socialism. The Constitution is irrelevant to them on such things.
As for the comment about would I give up my Medicare when I turn of age even though the government has confiscated my money and forced me into the program at literally gunpoint? I know I have said this before but perhaps it was on the old site that crashed. I would certainly give up my right to all MY money which the government has confiscated and is giving me back later for lower return on investment than even the poorest of savings accounts IF you liberals would agree to STOP taking my money at gun point from here on out.
But seems you libs never agree to that. You just want to be allowed to continue to take without any commitment because people being not dependent on government checks scares the bejezus out of you for some weird reason.
Otherwise my stance has always been that as long as the government is forcing people at gun point to pay for these unconstitutional programs the people have a right to be paid what the government promises them. As pathetic as that may be.
What rant? I asked some questions, so why the automatic attack mode? There’s just so much meanness going on here I find it very…well, let’s just say unfortunate. So go ahead and attack me again because my mother raised me to be polite and considerate, and to care about those less fortunate than myself. I’m not ashamed of these qualities. In fact, quite the opposite, so please don’t be surprised if your vitriol doesn’t elicit the desired effect.
You assumed so much about me from a few little questions, but FYI I don’t support a fully government run program, with government owned facilities and government employed doctors. I do support single payer similar to Medicare, but I don’t share your views about what that means. You know the arguments and you’ve already decided against them, so there is no point in trying to discuss the merits of Medicare for all. Not a problem, we don’t have to agree.
Something you should consider before you defend Kaiser Permanente, however, is that the way the Kaiser system operates is much like a government run system: all bureaucracy, no choices, one size fits all treatments, and no recourse whatsoever when mistakes are made.
The problem with the free market in health care is that there really is not much, if any, free choice the way it stands now. Because insurance is tied to employment most people are stuck in the plan their company offers, and if it happens to be Kaiser that means being captive in a system that is about as close to socialized medicine as you can get in the current system. Get another job, you say? What if there is no other job? Small businesses are now refusing to hire people with prior medical problems because that means the premiums for everyone else will be raised until they are no longer affordable for anyone. The self-employed often can’t find coverage at all.
It isn’t freedom when you are stuck in a job you don’t like for the benefits, or can’t start your own small business because you won’t have health care. With universal health care, if it’s done right — and believe it or not I don’t disagree that we can’t necessarily count on the government to make sure it is done right — it could mean true free choice.
The system is broken and people are dying. If not Medicare for all, then what can be done to fix it? I really want to know what you think.
Anyone care for some civil discussion, or do you just want to call me a dumb librul again? LOL
I’m with you JC. I’ve got news for you all caring and decent human beings with your horribly calloused remarks, I was a hard core republican until the greedy “non-profit” called kaiser permanente allowed my Baby to die (READ THE STORY IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE STORY BEFORE YOU LASH OUT WITH STUPIDITY). Have you bothered to read my story? My ex-husband was a speech writer for Bush, I voted for Bush and NOW, NOW, I get it. Took me awhile and several tears later but I get it. Oh, but I guess I am just boo-hooing because I lost a child. BIG DEAL, right? It is repulsive, the greed in this country and to hear you calloused, heartless wads rant on makes me want to vomit.
I am about as AMERICAN as you can get. I grew up in the heartland and a heart I do have.
I hope you all don’t have to learn the hard way too.
And is it really freedom to be constantly driven into debt if you are self-employed and happen to be “lucky” enough to be able to afford the healthcare available in the US today? We are all human beings and I personally feel that as a human being I have a right to be treated like a human being and when I need health care to keep me alive then it should be available. I shouldn’t have to make a choice between what I can afford and dying. You all need to get a grip. Pull your head out of your greedy, self-serving behinds and grow a heart.
You sure do gotta love liberals. They never answer the questions and keep up the talking points. And when they are backed into a corner they call you names and just “mean” because they can’t defend themselves any more.
JC and Beth are trolling. They fancy themselves as intelligent but are doing nothing except reacting irrationally. Beth opened up with the “meanness” by proudly telling everyone that she was going to leave this country.
Ron told her not to let the door hit her in the ass on the way out. That’s his right especially since he has shed blood for it. Then the truth started to fly. PinguMama, Red and Jeff stated the obvious; that sometimes bad things happen and Jeff even pointed out something even more obvious - that you don’t punish everyone for the mistakes a few.
Enter JC who “attacked” the free market health care system and asked questions probably hoping that noone would answer them. But the answers did come and they were not at all to his liking. Article I of the Constitution was thrown out there and that really sent his head spinning to the poit where he had to babble on and on in an attempt to save face.
Beth, sorry dear but if you want socialism and communism like Moore preaches then you are certainly not American. You yourself even said that you didn’t want to be such so why are you trying to wrap yourself in the flag now?
Get your ticket out like you PROUDLY proclaimed you wanted and leave. But somehow I don’t think you are.
Red Tornado, you are about as dumb as a door knob.
Have you ever experienced grief or are you above that? You are one of the elite and chosen ones I suppose.
Have you read the Patient Bill of Rights EVER?
“You all need to get a grip. Pull your head out of your greedy, self-serving behinds and grow a heart.”
Uh oh, looks like the Marxists have come out of hiding.
This is an interesting statement. Whose really greedy? The person who works hard? Or the person who demands others pay their way? The answer is the latter. The only people that are greedy here are you, Beth and JC.
You can argue all you like but you are not going to change that fact.
Pingu, you’ve caused the heads of the Marxists to POP! How dare you mention the Constitution!
You’re right LibertarianPrince, apparently Beth’s got her little “give me you stuff” gestapo out to defend her initial rant.
The problem is these retreds of the Soviet era are beyond reason. They fancy themselves as “Americans” but don’t believe in America. Or, as Benjamin Frankin put it “The Constitution doesn’t guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself.”
But that’s just too much freedom for some. They think their greif is a reason to punish everyone.
I wonder how long it will be before one of them at least attempts to address the unconstitutional aspect of socialized medicine?
My man Ron: “I wonder how long it will be before one of them at least attempts to address the unconstitutional aspect of socialized medicine?”
The Constitution is too complicated a subject for Marxists who think they are entitled to the fruits of the labor of others. Or, as Jeff puts has put it so eloquently in the past, they want to enslave the productive to satisfy their own desires and wants much like the plantation owners did of blacks back in the early days of this country.
Prince, you are fooling no one. I’m not trying to look intelligent because I know my intelligence level and don’t have to prove it to an audience. Uh, I think that might be you, trying to put on an “intelligent show” for everyone.
The movie Sicko crosses party lines dude (how’s that for intelligence) and being the liberal that you claim that I am…
Funny, I’ve never considered myself a liberal, NEVER. Just a decent, honest, giving hard-working Mom/Human Being who loves her children and wants a good life for them. But the way you all are trying your hardest at being or should I say looking intelligent you are kinda making me want to be a liberal so I guess this was good for something.
And by the way… you might want to check out the kaiserthrive site because it is enlightening. There are many other dirty little things going on with the justice system to support the dirty little healthcare and insurance industries. Why don’t you go experience losing a child for yourself and then have your rights as a US citizen stripped when you are searching for the truth.
I cannot believe what I am hearing. There are people actually complaining about the health system here in America?
Maybe I should have my father come by and tell you about how bad group medicine is in his home country of Cuba? I say only one thing. Thank God he fled and brought me here. My wife would have died giving birth to our son in that country. Here, the complications gave us a scare, but we have no doubt we got the best care available.
Beth, you’re not fooling anyone. You’re liberal. Everything you say shows your beliefs.
I notice however that you made another post without addressing how universal medicine is unconstitutional. You’re just spinning in hopes of landing on your feet.
HEY! Jaffy! My man! How’s the boy?
You haven’t been here and posting in ages!
Beth, now Jaffy is a man you could learn a lot from.
Beth, you told us on july 9 that you were leaving this great country.
My only question is why are you still here? Are you just another liberal that says one thing and does another?
From the response it is obvious no one bothered to read what I wrote, and that none of you are capable of civility. The cognitive dissonance is stunning.
America sucks so bad that people are breaking down the door to get here. Life gives Beth a lemon and she is (or claims to be) breaking down the door to leave.
Compare that to Jaffy’s dad who cobbled together a leaky raft and prayed to make the 90 mile trek safely from Cuba to America.
I thought truth and Justice was the American way.
“From the response it is obvious no one bothered to read what I wrote, and that none of you are capable of civility. The cognitive dissonance is stunning.” - JC
From your rsponse it is obvious you lack the ability to deal with facts. So you’ll just go along being merrily ignorant.
“I thought truth and Justice was the American way.” - Beth
It is, seek your justice but leave the rest of us out of your universal healthcare plans. The “truth” is socialized medicine sucks. Deal with it.
JC moans:”From the response it is obvious no one bothered to read what I wrote, and that none of you are capable of civility. The cognitive dissonance is stunning.”
Typical liberal response. They babble. They get a response that they can’t handle and then they accuse people of not reading what they wrote.
It is obvious that people did read what you wrote. You just can not take the reponses.
“From the response it is obvious no one bothered to read what I wrote, and that none of you are capable of civility. The cognitive dissonance is stunning.”
I’m with you J.C. These people are too busy talking over everyone and themselves too.
Ignorance is a waste of my time.
Wow. I can only wonder how long JC, Beth and their fellow travelers are going to keep digging.
And I’ll note, still no mention of how universal heath care is beyond the scope of AIS8 of the constitution. This is the reason you can’t argue with liberals. The facts don’t matter.
I haven’t seen any facts, only hatred. No one has done anything but make accusations and put words in my mouth. Do you really believe the present system can’t be improved, even if we disagree on how that might be accomplished?
Shammy, what do you know about socialized medicine? Enlighten me.
Make it good because this stupidity is mind boggling and I don’t know how much more I want to take in…but i’ll hang in there if you can enlighten me.
“Ignorance is a waste of my time.” - Beth
I think we all agree. You’re ignorance is certainly a waste of time.
Still no admission about Article I of the USC I see.
“Shammy, what do you know about socialized medicine? Enlighten me.” - Beth
I noticed you didn’t ask that question to Jaffy. Hmmm. Interesting. I can only hope he will come back and continue his story about his father.
“I haven’t seen any facts, only hatred. No one has done anything but make accusations and put words in my mouth.”
Obviously you didn’t read the original article. But that’s just like you liberals. You ignore anything that doesn’t fit your world view.
I’m with you JC.
Totally dude (remember now, we are liberals so we have to talk like liberals might talk).
Not once did I claim to know anything about anything other than my own personal experience which DID teach me alot. But I guess I am not entitled to my own personal experience because that makes me anti-american, socialist, etc. etc.
Ok guys, stop feeding the trolls.
It should be obvious by now that Beth and JC are not going to address the unconstitutional nature universal health care. And all you are doing is bickering with them and goading them on.
It is obvious that they are just going to deal with such issues. I have started a thread on the member’s side of the site so continue the discussion there. Let Beth, JC and anyone else they can drum up keep up the talking points here.
“But I guess I am not entitled to my own personal experience because that makes me anti-american, socialist,” Beth
Beth, if you want socialized medicine it makes you a socialist. Sorry dear if you can’t handle that. But wanting socialism DOES mean you are socialist.
Ooops, sorry. Didn’t see that request Jeff. I didn’t men to kick the hornets one more time
It’s ok PM. Tony’s over there and being a fairly liberal guy has decided he will take up the possition of arguing for socialized medicine.
At least we know with Tony it will be a real debate and not a bunch of ducking and jiving.
America is about hatred apparently, and civility is dead. God Bless America. See you in ‘08 guys. Oh wait, no I won’t because the neocons are going bye bye. Try not to cry too hard, because none of your friends are capable of empathy.
Civility is dead. You’ve proved that by ducking very single point that contradicts your belief system.
You love to talk about hatred but you ignore that it was Beth who spouted her hatred for America in her first post.
Then you whine about them “neo-cons”? That’s funny. I read this site infrequently but often enough. These guys aren’t “neo-cons”. But I guess you learned that slur from your handlers huh?
Uh, Wayne… your friends went somewhere else to prove their intelligence.
No, they pretty much did it right here. You just aren’t capable of realizing it.
And with that, it is clear that Beth nor JC have nothing new to add to this topic and are just here to taunt which provides nothing.
I suggest both Beth and JC read “The Rules” about “trolling”.
The concept that government “involvement” in an issue is analogous to communism seems, to me, to be a very weak argument. There is government involvement in every area of our lives–checks and balances is the positive term, government interference is the negative.
Why can’t I drive 90 mph through a school district? Why do I have to have my kids vaccinated just so they can go to 3rd grade? Why do I have confine myself to just one wife; why not three or four or as many as my income will allow?
These are examples of “regulations” (instituted and “controlled” by the government) and I don’t think this is a novel concept that they exist and, hopefully, they are put into place in order to help make the “system” work “better” for the common good.
What is happening, I believe, with health care is that the “idea” of what one gets with insurance turns out to be in variance with what one often times receives. In both socialized medicine countries and the US there is a distinct stratification at work.
Whether one is excluded due to volume or due to income, in both systems there will be those who suffer and those who prosper and there are limitations to both.
If Insurance Companies and other health care providers actually provided the services they “advertise” and contractually agree to then this would just be a question of rich vs poor and a different line of argumentation would likely follow.
But the most important issue (in my opinion) is that health care providers are taking advantage of a system that allows for profit taking (by many that have nothing to do with actually providing care but instead serve only in administrative capacities) to the detriment–in many cases this is life threatening–of the people who pay for their services.
Why, if I am a manufacturer, should I put decent brakes on motorcycles if I can make them at a higher profit with sub-standard ones? Why build the house to code if the likelihood of fire seems so remote? These lines of argumentation are no different than asking “why don’t you provide a level of service that meets acceptable, agreed upon standards”?
The issue is not that Canada is better or worse. The issue is that the system in the US does not work and whether or not one implements “socialized medicine” or not is not nearly as important as making the current system better and providing a level of oversight and control that supports better service to the consumer/patient.
Right now, health care in the US is broken. SOMETHING has to happen; the status quo is no longer a viable option and if “sicko” brings awareness to this issue and initiates a dialogue and critical assessment of current state, then this is a positive thing.
It took a while but eventually you got to your jsutification of your rambling by saying:
“The issue is that the system in the US does not work”
That is false. It works jsut fine. You just don’t like it and are bound and determined to justify government intrusion into the lives of the people as much as you can.
I think that anyone that would claim that the health care system in the US is broken or flawed is severely wrong. I make about $21,000 a year and have a wife who is a stay at home mom and two daughters. I don’t have great health coverage but I have what I can afford and my family gets the treatment they need. I’m way below the poverty line at that salary too.
Anyone that says that “Sicko” has valid points or sheds light on an issue about how bad the system is I think just pining for something more than what they have earned. Weird huh? That coming from someone that barely makes enough to keep food on the table? But it is the truth.
I’d rather live free than die a slave to the state. When you care more about principle than giving it, it’s easy to stay free. And I have my father who came here from the former Soviet Union to thank for instilling those values in me.
Actually, the health care system doesn’t really work “just fine”. There are methodological imperatives based on both IT infrastructure and clinical processes that are out of control and most of the cost based models underlying health care are at serious odds with accepted best practice models.
And, Flaternity, I think it is great that you feel you have such wonderful health coverage although I am amazed that four people can live, much less go to the doctor, on 21,000 a year.
Just to put things in perspective, as I do have some first hand experience with health care, on both sides of the curtain, I made about 300,000 a year (as an analyst and manager for Kaiser Permanente–a rather large health care provider and, sadly, a very poor one, as well) and my 300,000 a year salary and my fancy job and title working FOR a hospital did nothing to help me because the hospital I designed business processes and testing methodologies for allowed my child to die.
They were so cost-conscious that they did not “notice” a medical crisis and so now we have no daughter. There are other problems I have experienced with health care as well. One more example (although nothing compared to the loss of our child): I have an arthritic badly damaged shoulder, but the doctors did nothing to help me with that other than confirm that, yes, my shoulder is damaged.
Thanks for the insight. No treatment, no medication, no therapy, nothing. I should “exercise it” and “maybe” it will improve.
As a former athlete I exercise it pretty much all the time. There are horror stories galore I could recite from listening to others talk about their experiences with their health care providers but I think mine should be enough.
And, after allowing our child to die–and trust me, if this happens to you, you may re-think your position on health care–the hospital LOST critical medical records and then, later, inserted false records in their place.
We know these are false because we know EMR (electronic medical record) protocol and the “found” records do not conform to that protocol so they are obviously fakes–and please don’t even ATTEMPT to dispute this because, once again, based on my JOB, I know what these are supposed to look like and these “ain’t it”.
Yes it is great that you do so well with so little but until you can (a) show first hand experience working in a managerial capacity for a health car provider and (b) have some experience with losing a loved one due to medical malpractice then forgive me if I find your argumentation weak and irrelevant.
The issue at hand is not one of socialism versus capitalism but rather the implementation of controls and standards that are in closer adherence to standard best practice models in business–the only best practice models anyone in health care pays much attention to are cost reduction models, which is fine provided that frugality does not undercut the efficacy of the service provided.
I am not saying that we need to be Canada or have socialized medicine. What I am saying is this:
1. The health care system does not work as well as it should.
2. Somebody should do something about it. Socialized medicine is not the only answer; but there must be changes, fundamental root cause changes, in order for the health care system to be viable and, well, “healthy”.
To deny that there are “real” problems is, to me, very short-sighted thinking.
One of the arguments made against “sicko” is that it promotes socialized medicine and is just more “liberal whining”. The hard line argument by many conservative critics is that if we go to a system like Canada’s then we will all wait in line for weeks on end and no one will ever get care and then we will all be in the fields harvesting wheat and making substandard toaster ovens in some post-Stalinist nightmare world.
Could it just be that capitalism without checks and balances is fundamentally “different” than what the US once was and the idea of regulatory, best practice oversight is not a bad thing but instead the basis upon which we can make things better?
The health care system in the US is, if not broken, then at least seriously “bent”. I remember being a kid in the 60’s when you could still go to the doctor and not have to sell the house in order to do it. It is certainly not that way any more!!
SOMETHING has to happen; the status quo is no longer a viable option and if “sicko” brings awareness to this issue and initiates a dialogue and critical assessment of current state, then this is a positive thing.
Well PinguaMama, what I am really saying is this: There are laws and laws should be obeyed. If health care providers are outside of the written legislation then the system does not, in fact, cannot, work. If everyone plays on a level playing field, then there is no need for intervention by anyone.
But the reason we have laws is that it has been shown that not everyone “voluntarily” takes the high noble path. Too often individuals or groups succumb to self-interests and commit deeds that “go against” what is best for the group.
That, on a simplistic level, is why we have a legal system–a codified standard of behavior with “watchers” to help confirm we adhere to those standards and “penalties” to be administered if we don’t.
Health care providers can “stretch” contractual language–your policy–to the point of breaking and that is not fair. All I am asking is that health care providers be held accountable to do what the laws say they should do. Either re-write the laws or do something to hold providers accountable for breaking them. Either or.
Sadly–That is not how it is now. And that is what needs to change.
Policy always drives process–always–so if the health care providers knew they were expected to conform to a specific level of care or risk being penalized then they would figure it out and the system would change. As long as they can play fast and loose and avoid being penalized nothing will change. That is the issue.
Amazing. Even when someone tells you everything is fine who is among the “poor” which is why people claim we need socialized medicine, you still continue on with the talking points. Your desire for socialism is matched only by your long windededness and you desire to believe what you want to believe.
I do not have health insurance. I do not want health insurance. And I certainly do not want the government telling me that I must have health insurance. Bad enough they already force me to save for my retirement in a way they dictate and take a bite out of my paycheck.
Socialized medicine is just another way of people who want what I work hard for trying to get their hands on it.
No matter how mad the system is shown to have historically worked they will continue to cry for it. Liberty and freedom are too complex for them and we all must suffer.
I would say the current system works just fine. As a single mom I do not have health insurance. When my child is sick I go to the doctors and pay him $50 cash to see my son and he takes me right away no matter how many other people are there or what appointments he has. When I was married and had health “insurance” I would go and dop down my $20 co-pay and wait an hour and a half in line with everyone else because, as my doctor explained, the insurance gives him an anal exam over every patient he sees to make sure no one is abusing the system and taking advantage of their “cheap” coverage.
I’ve personally never been happier. I’m not rich. Pretty poor myself at about 30 grand a year. But I work hard and don’t need any of that taken from me to force me into a system where I am back to waiting an hour for the doctor.
Perhaps this concept is too taxing to those of you who fail to understand basic English. My issue is not economic; it is procedural. I don’t give a shit how much it costs or who pays for it. I don’t care if it costs 9000 a minute or is free.
My issue is this: if you pay for something because it is written down in plain English then you should expect to get what you pay for.
I am not complaining about costs. I AM complaining that if I buy something, like health insurance, I expect the providers to give me the service I pay for, and not change the rules after the fact.
The issue is NOT socialized medicine versus free market. The issue IS that insurance companies change the rules on the consumer AFTER the consumer has purchased the product and THEN the consumer has no rights to recompense IF the provider FAILS to hold up their end of the bargain.
A mistake is one thing-we are all human. But a pattern of the same types of issues being repeated over and over is suggestive of willfully avoiding responsibility by the providers because they realize there is no accountability.
And, lamest argument ever, someone one step from welfare says the system works fine. I worked in a lead capacity for years helping redesign how health care is provided in the US and working towards setting up quality assurance standards for the entire country (a prototype for digitizing health records) and I don’t know what I am talking about and they are Credibility Personified–interesting.
And the happy person who doesn’t have health insurance–then you are a drain on ME and MY money because someone is going to have to foot the bill if you or your family DO get sick.
And everything is hunky dory if all that happens to you is that you get a cold or break your finger. But GOD help you if something serious happens to you because then, when you need it most, the providers go poof–they vanish and yet you see them standing there and don’t realize until it is too late that your expectations were wrong and your coverage–the coverage YOU PURCHASED–just vaporized all the while you were looking right at it.
Accountability is all I am saying. That is what is needed. I don’t agree with everything Michael Moore says but I DO believe the health care system is in a crisis mode and needs to be re-worked.
The health care system works just fine for the single mom who makes $30k because she can go to the doctor and pay $50. Make that $50,000 (or more!) if someone ends up in the hospital, and if it happens to one of her kids she can just tell them “Oh well, I would rather let you die than be a slave to the state. Sorry son, the health care system works just fine, and if you don’t have the money you don’t deserve to live.”
The health care system does not work “just fine.” You are delusional if you believe that just because you haven’t had a problem with it yet, that problems don’t exist.
Vacuous comments are a hallmark of those that cannot form a reasoned argument. Previously it was opined that the government has the right to tell you what speed you can travel on roads so why can’t it interfere with the health care system? The commenter apparently has an education less than high school grade to make this comparison or knows how stupid that his arguments for universal health care sounds and is just grasping at any straw within reach.
I work in road construction. “Speed limits” on roads are set because roads are designed to be traveled at certain speeds which are limited by factors such as the sharpness of upcoming turns. You cannot take an 80 degree turn at 75mph which is why the speed limit is set to 15mph. You often don’t find very many such turns on freeways but you find them often in residential neighborhoods, which is why such areas have lower speed limits and is based on physics taught in even the worst of high schools in America.
Should you doubt these laws of nature you are more than welcome to plow your car around such a turn at 75 mph and rid the world of your mind numbing bloviating. The only things I plead is that you make certain that no innocents are in your path and pay the price for your stupidity and that you make sure to record the event so others with similar notions such as yours may learn.
These same laws of physics apply on freeways and interstates as well. While you certainly can often travel at speeds upwards of 100mph on straight-aways, you will find your car pulling uncontrollably into the outer edge of the curve on a road designed to be traveled at 65mph. This causes a hazard to others on the road, especially if they are in the outside lane while you are in the inside lane of travel.
The reason that there are not different speeds for straight-aways and for curves is because it is generally unsafe and people tend to ignore or miss these changes in speed and would take turns too fast at a higher rate of incident. So the entire road is limited to the same speed.
There are other factors too, again based on high school physics, that limit speeds as well. For example if there is a school crossing over a rise the speed might be limited in that area to 10mph from 25 mph in order to give drivers enough time to react to the situation. Also, the chance of hazards such as pedestrian traffic, distance between stops signs and red lights are also all factored in. It is all very scientific.
Now, none of this in any way helps your argument about health care and how it should be nationalized. There is no perfect system. There never will be. But the system that allows people to rise and fall based on their own desires and actions and abilities is inherently the fairest. Whereas speed limits are based on the laws of nature and hard science, the desire to have something that you might want but cannot afford is based only on a desire to control others arbitraily. That is not what good government does and based on your flawed arguments I have to wonder if you understand that.
“It’s thick in here” is a prime example of the socialist mentality. Unless the state is in control they don’t see any other way that anything could possible be taken care of. Of course “It’s thick in here” is what is really getting thick in here and ignores the generousness and charitable attitude of Americans who have thousands of charities, church groups and funds set up around the country that help people pay for medical bills they cannot afford. But that is not the “state” solution so it is unaceptable. Forced charity at the point of the gun is a way to go.
Yes, people often forget about charities who help people below the poverty line. I think that socialists automatically defualt to the “state solution” because they either do not know about charity or do not believe it exists.
Two good places to look are:
http://www.guidestar.org/
and
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm
Simple searches turn up hundreds of organizations that help with all sorts of medical bills. Ooops! Sorry. Didn’t mean to stick another nail in the coffin of people who think the system doesn’t work.
I take a particularly Biblical approach. Unless you work, you do not eat (or get healthcare). If you chose not to work thou shalt not steal that which you have not earned nor shall you covet that which others have which could pay your way. If you work or are unable to work and cannot afford that which you need you may ask your fellow man to aid you (love one another) but you may not coerce them into helping you. Those that help voluntarily gain grace and favor with God.
I know that will set some of the more socialist commentators I have heard here lately off. But ask me if I care.
Reechard:
Evidently you are the one who can’t read. My comment was questioning why can’t one drive at high speeds through school zones. This has nothing whatever to do with the laws of physics as no mention is made of terrain, weather, road surface or anything else.
The analogy was meant to suggest perhaps it is better to drive slowly in case a 6 year old might run in front of your path. There are regulations, standards, put in place for a reason and they are for the common good–the safety of a child in this particular case–and are not contingent (again in this specific analogy) with anything other than that. Regulations for the safety and welfare of others.
Typically, wild hairpin curves and pot holes are not normally associated with school zones. Speed limits set in school zones have nothing to do with the quality of the roads–they are implemented as a safety measure only and are standardized irregardless of terrain or road surface so your analogy is not really applicable.
And since you work in construction, my guess is you feel this qualifies you also as on expert on economics and health care, too? Is that correct? After all it takes money to build roads and people get hurt in car accidents all the time, right?
I am not–again let me repeat this–advocating universal health care or socialized medicine but am simply suggesting that the current health care system does not work as it should and one of the primary reasons for that stems from the laxity of regulatory oversight that providers are faced with. I am not asking for additional laws or controls–only asking that existing laws be adhered to, as they are currently written.
And–MY issue was not that I couldn’t afford it. I could. My issue is that the service that I paid for was not provided to me, even AFTER I purchased it.
I particularly like my insurance and don’t see why I should have to pay for someone that isn’t as hard of a worker for their insurance. What’s next? Will I be required to put them up in my spare bedroom too? How many shackles will the government place upon us?
Andy, do not troll. You will see (if you can understand english) that he discussed pedistrians and so on later on in his article.
Don’t get upset that he took issue with your poor attempt at an analogy and that you didn’t read his response.
I hate to break it to Andy who is protesting far too much it seems that the health care field is regulated to the hilt so why he is going on about how there is a “laxity of regulatory oversight that providers”. Having a wife that is an ER nurse I know first hand the anal exam she is given every time something thinks that their treatment wasn’t up to snuff. Having a sister that is the insurance business I also get to see first hand how the regulators swarm in and check the records they keep too every time a medical claim is filed. Obviously he has no idea what he is talking about.
I firmly believe at this point that Andy is looking for the “utopia” of health care which does not exist. There will always be mistakes no matter who runs it and the government has no authority under the Constitution to be involved.
“the government has no authority under the Constitution to be involved.”
And by that I mean PROVIDING health coverage. They already regulate it out the wazzo however.
And I can back you up on that Ron considering my wife is also a nurse and I know how much trouble you can get a nursing home in by just calling one little number. Talk about anal exams
Anyone who thinks healthcare is not regulated in this country is living in a fantasy land or on some really good drugs.
ForthRightly:
You should be particularly outraged by the current health care system as the Bible also admonishes us to not lie.
“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds’ Colossians 3:10
“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, but they that deal truly are his delight” Proverbs 12:22
The health care system is based on a big lie–and it is this: we will honor our bargain with you, no matter what.
But what happens is this, if it becomes problematic or expensive later, then the health care providers stop holding up their end of the deal.
THIS IS MY ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you take your wedding vows, “in sickness and health” there is no fine print that says “unless you get really sick and your illness costs a lot of money to cure.”
With an insurance company you hear the vow but don’t realize the fine print because it is a faint hollow whisper. All I am asking is that the insurance companies honor their vows, their sacred trust, with me and anyone else who signs up for their services. Would you leave your sick wife or child to fend for themselves alone? Is this a Christian attitude to take?
Then why would you support a Godless institution like an insurance company that will ONLY honor their vows to you AS LONG AS it is not TOO expensive.
“But what happens is this, if it becomes problematic or expensive later, then the health care providers stop holding up their end of the deal.” - Andy
Really. Hmmm. That’s odd. When my brother was in bad shape after an auto accident (basically bed ridden in a hospital for 5 years) it wound up costing his insurance something around $1.5 million dollars for his care. And then he came home and has also had on going medical expenses but, thank God he is back to normal almost.
So what you are doing is basically slandering the healthcare profession and doing exactly what you told ForthRightly not to do and “lied”.
Like I said, do not troll. It is a bannable offense and making idiotic statements like yours certainly constitutes as such.
Will there be cases of malfesence? Sure. People do bad things. Are they common place? No.
Watch out everyone. Andy is becoming unhinged and saying anything he thinks he can get away with. This is what always happens as they are unable to make headway.
I didn’t realize that your brother’s bills were that much PM. But I can definately verify that his insurance company did not “abandon” him.
I too sense a certain level of anxiety born of frustration.
1. My daughter died as a result of a medical error. FACT
2. My health care provider lost critical medical records and is not held accountable for losing these records. FACT
3. The health care provider SUBSTITUTED fake records in their place in order to disavow themselves from culpability in allowing our child to die. FACT
Ban me because I won’t be back but the FACT is this: cost cutting in health care is rampant and it negatively impacts patient safety and I know this first hand as I dealt with potential patient safety risks all the time as part of my employment.
I am not saying that everything is broken but I am saying that there are many problems and these need to be addressed.
If someday you ever find yourselves on the short end of the health care stick (too often rammed up you ass) then you may think twice about what I am saying. Until then, adios and have a great week.
As a nurse who works for an insurance company I would like to say that I spend more hours out of my day filling out paperwork and answering questions that the government requires of me than I do seeing and helping my patients.
Hardly a lack of government oversight.
POP!
Andy is so blinded by his own rage that he cannot see that what happened to him, while a tragedy, is rare. Other people’s experiences mean nothing. It’s all about him and his grief.
And while I can speak for every regular that is here that we are sorry for your loss, that is not an excuse to rant and rave and ignore the truth while distorting the lies. But I guess it is easier to do that than address cases like PinguMama’s that blow your theory out of the water.
In the end you will just go on believing what you want and wallowing in your own guilt.
FYI, my brother’s son (or what would have been his son) died due to medical error and malpractice during child birth. The system worked. He was compensated as much as he could be for the loss of his child and the doctor lost his license as did the nurse who tried to cover it up.
So before you act like a fool understand that other people’s experiences count for something. And it’s not “all about you.”
I guess realizing that he wasn’t going to be allowed to lie (twice) and get a pass was simply too much to handle. Like you said LibPrince; “POP!”.
I could share my own stories about how the medical insurance industry and the oversight over it works pretty darn well. But Andy would just ignore that too I think.
I think several of us here have stories about the insurance industry, myself included, based on things I have seen us talk about in other posts. Some are good, some are bad. But I don’t think any of us are as vehiment as Andy that the system needs fixing and more oversight.
Oh Andy, come now. We know you are not gone
Well–pop right back at you. Because one incident supports your argument does not disavow mine. My argument and documentation is equally valid. We can all document pros and cons til the cows come home but the fact that there are ANY that support my position IS the problem.
There should not be any. Period. That IS the problem in a nutshell. If my case were a rarity then that would be one thing. But, sadly, it is not.
1.5 million dollars, while a lot to many of us, is a drop in the bucket to a health care provider with annual revenues of 30 billion dollars. I passed up implementing programs because they ONLY brought in potential annual revenue of 25 million dollars–it wasn’t worth the time or effort to include it or take a chance of disrupting current state.
I am happy for her brother and sad for me and my wife but the fact is this–just because you fill out forms does not mean that legislation is always handed down equally.
And the outcome you discussed regarding malpractice is how it should be but it is not what is happening in our case (also how long ago was that? Things are not the same now as they used to be).
No fines, no slap on the wrist, nothing at all. A non-event but it is not a non-event to us.
Too many people now lose their coverage through no fault of their own. This is not fair.
Also, an accident is an isolated event with an expected end, both in care and expenditures. Long term terminal illnesses–that is where people typically lose out.
Now ban me
“my position IS the problem”
You got that right!
Andy said: “Now ban me”
One rule that I adhere to most ardently is that whenever someone asks for a ban they get it. So now you can go run to you friends and tell them that you were banned. The question is can you be honest with them as to why?
I honestly don’t know many rational people that would call 1.5 million dollars a “drop in the bucket” except someone desperately trying to justify a possition when it was made known that their talking points would not be accepted as gospel.
How long until you think he runs to a friend’s house or reboots his connection to try and get around that ban?
I sympathize with you Andy, but only so far. I think you’ve acted baddly.
I’ve been through some legal battles over insurance with my precious daughter who came through everything alright thank the Lord. They were fighting me over much less than “$1.5 million” which you claim is a pittance so that pretty much debases that lie. If one and a half mill was a drop in the bucket then why fight me over just 50k?
What I will say is the system worked. And I have my baby girl.
Jeff, maybe you should share your own experiences about your accident, your perminent back injuries, an insurance company that found you tooth and nail and a jury that basically siad that yes, you were baddly injured; yes, your back is now perminently f’ed up; yes, the man who hit you really did hit you; yes, he caused the injury; and here’s a $1,000 for your trouble!
Talk about miscarriages of justice. Yet look at you. You’ve got your own company and doing alright.
Honestly Ron? I’d rather not.
The only one here with any intelligence is Andy.
Of course anyone seems “intelligent” to someone with an IQ of 6.
Rambling meltdowns are hardly a sign of intelligence.